There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.

Roger Harris: Hello again everybody. It's another federal tax update podcast. This is Roger Harris. And as always I am joined post October 15th with Annie Schwab. And how are you doing now that another deadline has come and gone?

Annie Schwab: You know I it's great when the deadlines go, but I feel there's one just right around the corner. I just I can feel it already. We're [00:00:30] already talking about year end and we're talking about next April and what will happen and who knows. But I'm doing good.

Roger Harris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It seems like there's not much break between one year and the next. Now one ends and you eat a little turkey and next thing you know it's another tax season.

Annie Schwab: Absolutely.

Roger Harris: Well, we have a very special guest and a friend joining us today. Many of you probably know our guest. You've probably either seen him Teaching at IRS [00:01:00] forums and other places. Seen and heard him at tax talk today or just run into him, uh, around NEA. We're happy to have Alan with us from the beautiful Northern California. I want to say wine country, but I don't know how close you actually are to wine country, but you're a lot closer than I am.

Annie Schwab: Yeah.

Alan Pinck: Little south, little south. Thanks for having me, Roger. I do appreciate the invite.

Roger Harris: Oh, well, we are we are thrilled to have you. [00:01:30] And again, uh, Andy and I have known Alan, and we have him as a friend. So we're just going to sit here and talk among friends. And hopefully at the end of this, we'll, uh, we'll have something. I know you'll learn something from Alan as we go through, because he's a very interesting person. Great background, a lot of intelligent stuff. And, uh, we're just happy he's joining us. So, um, Alan, again, welcome. Thank you for joining us. And let's go and see where we go. Let's see where we start and where we finish.

Alan Pinck: Roger. When I met you [00:02:00] a few years back at the forums and we started doing the panel together, that became right away, you took me in and made me feel welcome. And that really was quite nice. I was new. New to the whole scene at the time, so I did appreciate that.

Roger Harris: Yeah, we were all new to that. This is Alan's talking about and you probably heard us reference it where we do practice management. Uh, panel at the IRS forums. And Alan's been with us from the. I don't think you've missed a single one. Have you've done them all? Oh.

Alan Pinck: You know me. [00:02:30] Once I get out there, I can't stop.

Roger Harris: Right. Once you agree to something, you're going to do it. So yeah, we've so we've done three years of those and, um, I guess we'll do them next year if they have us back. And they still do them. But I'm sure we'll talk about some upheaval at the IRS and the forums and our session and everything, I guess is, uh, up for examination as we move forward, given now, right now, as we speak, the government shut down and we don't even know when it'll open up, much.

Annie Schwab: Less every time we do a podcast. We're like, and it's [00:03:00] still shut down. But maybe by the time you listen to this, it won't be. And here we are again.

Alan Pinck: Well, well, it's kind of interesting. I do have one audit going.

Annie Schwab: Okay.

Alan Pinck: The audit is going to be one that kept the appointment. She's actually still working. You know, I went through all the other cases the first week. The auditors were. Well, hopefully this isn't going to disturb us. We have one foot. We have one week that we're budgeted for and we're going to work that week. And I've got one case in particular where the auditor, there's a mistake on the report and [00:03:30] had it corrected twice. There's still one more mistake he's got to correct, and now we're waiting for that to happen. My client's no hurry for that bill, but.

Annie Schwab: Right.

Alan Pinck: But I did tell them they needed to start making payments in the meantime, just to stop the interest. But this case, this auditor. Um, apparently she volunteered back at the last furlough to work anyways. And basically somebody had to go open the mouth, which is good to know that the iris does open the mouth, what they actually do with it after [00:04:00] that. But at least it's being opened. And, um, because she's working and the manager is working, this is going to be an opportunity for both of them, because now she's gets to get her annual review with the manager during this interview process for this, for this one case.

Roger Harris: Gotcha.

Alan Pinck: What's the bonus they're doing?

Roger Harris: I mean, they're not completely closed. Obviously there couldn't be because there's there's things that go on. Somebody asked me the other day, said, well, do I really have to pay? I said, yeah, they're still collecting money. Trust me.

Annie Schwab: You're [00:04:30] not that lucky.

Roger Harris: I promise you, that's still going on.

Alan Pinck: Well, the what they're paying refunds is up in the air, but they are collecting.

Roger Harris: Yeah, they'll definitely take your money if you owe it.

Annie Schwab: Exactly.

Alan Pinck: Yeah, that's been interesting. I did get a couple of calls from people like, um, well, they're closed. They can't file the returns and. Oh, no, you know, he's still working, and, you know, I would I would certainly anybody. That the paper file to return. Do not expect it to be processed anytime soon.

Roger Harris: No, no. If you're waiting for a phone call. Yeah. Yeah. [00:05:00]

Alan Pinck: So we'll see what happens.

Roger Harris: Well. We'll see. Yeah. Who knows? I wish. I don't even know. They know. So I don't know why we would know, but we'll one day at a time.

Alan Pinck: But we do know we have somebody sort of in charge now.

Annie Schwab: Well, I saw that.

Roger Harris: Yeah.

Alan Pinck: Right.

Roger Harris: We we have a CEO, which we've never had before.

Alan Pinck: Well, I think nobody wants to be commissioner. No.

Annie Schwab: So they'll take the CEO title over the commissioner title.

Alan Pinck: Well, well, the CEO, they [00:05:30] don't have to go through the congressional approval for that.

Annie Schwab: Ah, okay.

Roger Harris: Yeah, well, that's that's their position they're taking. I have seen some politicians questioning whether you can get around that by calling it the CEO, but so far so good.

Alan Pinck: Somebody's got to take that on. Yeah. Be fun. Yeah.

Annie Schwab: So tell us a little bit about how you got where you are. What have you. It sounds like, you know, you've had. Give us the brief career [00:06:00] overview. Could you.

Roger Harris: Could you let us know? You're like. You're not like. You're like most people in this profession. You didn't start here. You you did some other things. And I know a little bit about it, but share kind of how you got to where you are now with our with our listeners.

Alan Pinck: Well, like, like you said, Roger, you know, I think there's very few of us in this industry that's woke up and said, I want to be a tech professional. You know, I've met maybe two people. You know, I did meet I've known a handful of accountants that woke up and wanted to be accountants. They went [00:06:30] to school for that, obviously. But, you know, for me, I spent my first career in hospitality, and it got to the point where I didn't like people anymore. So I knew it was time to get out. Right. You know, people get on your nerves, get to that point. But, um, I got into taxes. Oh, gosh, 36 years now. My dad had was an enrolled agent and retired. Now, obviously he, uh, bought a practice. Was a little bit much for him, [00:07:00] too much for him to handle it by himself. So he offered it to my brother and my sister and myself to come join them. I was actually on the other, on the other coast at the time and figured, I'll give it a shot. I wanted to get into a regular life. That's what I thought at the time, because everybody tells you, right? You get into a regular life.

Alan Pinck: So that was my goal. I did a year and I really liked it. That's the year for the big block store and, um, enjoyed what I did. Did all kinds of returns. Back then we were actually using [00:07:30] a pencil and paper, which was a lot different than now. Um, best way to learn? I encourage anybody that wants to know how to do a tax return, do their own, download the forms and fill them out by hand. You know, back then, Roger, you remember they used to have the numbers at the top of the form so you know how to write the numbers where they are wanted them. You couldn't put a loop in your rows or put a dash of your sevens. You had to write it just, um, just so there was a way they wanted to see it. Well, after doing a few hundred returns like [00:08:00] that, I said, well, I could do this. And I went to California and the rest is history. Became an EA in 93 and from there on out just couldn't stop myself.

Roger Harris: Yeah. Hey, did you ever do a tax return by hand? You ever done a tax return?

Annie Schwab: I did not. I have been fortunate enough to not have to go through that exercise, although I probably did, probably in my master's program. But no. All software for me.

Roger Harris: Yeah. You know, and I agree with everybody should have to do a tax return by hand for no other reason [00:08:30] that we've become so dependent on, on tax software that we put a number in. And it just takes it and moves it wherever it needs to go. And back when you did them by hand, if you didn't know where it went, it didn't it wasn't going. Yeah. Right. And it forced you to learn, which also made you easier, I think, to communicate with a client because I understood the whole process, not just. Well, I put it in this software. What? Do I know where it went?

Alan Pinck: Well, you remember the wall of forms, Roger.

Roger Harris: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Alan Pinck: The [00:09:00] back wall of the office was just little cubbies of forms. So you would you would make a list at your desk and what you would need, and you'd go back to the wall and go, okay, I need one of these and one of these and one of these. But that's when taxes were simple. Yeah. We didn't have 15 extra schedules for every, every time we turned around. But then again, we did depreciation by hand, which I can't imagine.

Annie Schwab: Yeah, yeah.

Roger Harris: You had to be able to not only describe makers or double declining balance and straight [00:09:30] line and some of the years digits, I mean all those crazy things and you had to know how to actually calculate it and what was salvage value. And you know, it was oh gosh.

Annie Schwab: Are y'all having nightmares over there?

Roger Harris: I'm questioning, why the hell did I do it? Why am I still doing it?

Alan Pinck: But you know what? I'm going around the country talking. Roger and I, the people, when I ask who did, returns by hand and they raised their hand. They're most most of them were the happier [00:10:00] professionals in the sense that they remembered doing it when it was. First of all, yes, it was a little simpler, but it was also we understood it a lot more than.

Roger Harris: You had to. Yeah, you had to.

Alan Pinck: Know right.

Roger Harris: Now. I was going to say the one thing I learned that I still that has helped me tremendously from those days is when you finished a return, you know, today we finish a return and somebody calls us up and says, oh, I forgot something, or I need you. Well, let [00:10:30] me tell you what. When that happened, when you did them by hand, it was a completely different discussion because that, you know, today. Oh, you forgot something. You just opened up the system, put the numbers in. Everything's done then. I mean, I've raced through forms. I mean, I literally had ten 40s that I had to copy again because I had raced so many times. You couldn't read the numbers anymore. So you developed a whole strategy on making sure you had all the information and what was worthy of a change [00:11:00] and what wasn't. It's like, and what you charge to do it again, because it was not just open the system up and type in a new number. So it was awful.

Alan Pinck: That first year I had a woman walk in with 52 w-2s. Her husband worked out of a union hall and had 1 or 2 jobs a week. So my first question was, are you sure you have them all? And she looked at me and she was very stern. She says, Alan, I [00:11:30] teach all the other women in the union hall how to keep track of this stuff. Every time he comes home from a new place. I make sure he brings their name, their address, their phone number. I have a book and she had this book. She brought it out and she had a little check marks. Make sure she got the check. Make sure she got the W-2. Make sure she had a pay stub. Everything was right there, all laid out, she says. Now I come in and see you. It's like, okay, I'm not going to argue with you. But yes. Going back, can you imagine getting a corrected 1099 [00:12:00] in March after you filed your tax return?

Roger Harris: All no or no or all those people that have all those transactions. Now that, you know, we can enter totals. And back then you had to enter each.

Annie Schwab: Each one.

Roger Harris: Each one the schedule D with all that and God forbid they corrected one.

Alan Pinck: O. The worst nightmare would be crypto.

Annie Schwab: Yeah, yeah.

Alan Pinck: Doing that by hand. It's tough enough to do that. I mean, I wouldn't recommend anybody does that with a spreadsheet. [00:12:30] There's there's service for that.

Roger Harris: Right?

Annie Schwab: Oh man.

Roger Harris: I remember telling people you're better off letting the IRS catch this and send you a bill. Than for me to give you a bill to make sure they don't do so. Oh, well, we'll turn our war stories. So yeah.

Alan Pinck: Those are the fun times. Those are the fun times.

Roger Harris: Yeah, I guess so.

Annie Schwab: Do you. Did you rather do the representation or do you like to actually do the planning and the tax [00:13:00] stuff?

Alan Pinck: You know, I like to do a little bit of everything. Okay, okay. I like to do the representation. I do quite a bit of that. Um, although my wife's been reminding me all the time it's okay to say no once in a while. On occasion you're there. But I like to speak. I like to be on that stage. And as long as I'm on that stage, I know that I need to do a certain amount of prep work, a certain amount of prep work, just to make me relevant on that stage, because [00:13:30] anybody can get up there and teach out of the book. Yeah. But you know. And Roger, you said enough for those classes. And you two, you said these classes after a while and all you get is. Because you're just hearing wah wah wah wah wah wah. You know, back in Charlie Brown days and, and I try to bring a little bit more to my classes. And I feel that when I'm, when I'm watching, somebody else is actually doing this stuff, they're much more entertaining. Yeah, there's [00:14:00] nothing more boring than a tax class other than a tax publication.

Roger Harris: Yeah, yeah. Reading, reading tax stuff. What made you want to get into representation? I mean, I'm assuming you started like all of us did doing tax returns. Did was there something or just the challenge of it or did something? What lead you there?

Alan Pinck: I first started I've one of my it was actually a friend. A friend of mine was a friend of mine, and um, I was did his tax return. He had an interesting situation. His wife had a daycare. And, [00:14:30] um, instead of doing the home office. It's a home daycare by the hours. We did it by percentage, because what he actually did was converted the garage into a daycare center. It had its own entrance. It had a bathroom. I mean, granted, he probably could do a little more use because of the kitchen, you know, kind of area that she used. But for the most part, that garage, that was the daycare. And I knew when I when I told when we filed the return and [00:15:00] everybody has that, I know I'm going to be audited. This return is going to be audited. I mean, honestly, if you ever we've all done it. And, you know, out of the nine audits of my own work that I represented, eight of them I knew were going to be audited when I prepared those returns. And this is one of them. And I walked in and didn't know what I was doing. It didn't matter, because I knew my client, and I realized how easy it was to go through that process. [00:15:30] And the main thing was I was nice to the auditor, and the auditor was nice to me because I could hear going on in the cubicle next to me that going back and forth kind of thing.

Annie Schwab: Oh.

Alan Pinck: And right there told me that that person, that representative or taxpayer, whatever it was, was going to have a problem where, you know, I walked in there knowing that I had what I needed to have and I was able to present my case. And after that, it was like, okay, I can do this. And now I can see where this money and really that [00:16:00] in the end, it took my practice from a part time practice for our stolen hospitality to a year round practice. And, you know, there's a lot of people out there that want to do that necessarily have want to have a year round practice. There's a lot of us hate, you know, I'm I'm making money three, three months out of the year and calling it a day. But, you know, a lot of us getting going, it's tough. You need to find that niche and bookkeeping. A lot of people do bookkeeping They don't like bookkeeping, but they [00:16:30] do bookkeeping. Yeah, I tried that. I didn't like to do bookkeeping. I mean, I'm all about numbers. Numbers don't lie. It's easy for me to do that stuff. The repetition was no fun.

Annie Schwab: I was about to say, do you run into the same auditors from time to time?

Alan Pinck: I I'm on a first name basis with a lot of auditors.

Annie Schwab: Wow.

Alan Pinck: To a point where during the DRP, I was getting phone calls. They started in February. The first round of DRP. I [00:17:00] got a phone call from an auditor that I worked with a couple dozen times, if not more, over the years, and she called me up and says, Allen says, I gotta tell you, I'm taking the I'm taking the the DRP. I just wanted I wanted to give you the heads up because I know that you and I had a great relationship over the years. You know, that kind of thing. Right on down to April 15th, where I. I use this term a buddy on the dark side because I've known Edward for, gosh, a good 20 years, [00:17:30] 25 years even. We've worked together a long time ago. I had a few cases. The other got along very well. He's now with Albany and he called me up on April 15th. I saw his number and I said, I answered the phone. Edward, do not tell me that you're taking the DRP. And his answer was, well, this would be a very short phone call.

Annie Schwab: Right?

Alan Pinck: Uh, he'd call me about him calling me about a month and a half later and said I wanted to go. They wouldn't let me because the position [00:18:00] with Albany. So, you know, there were some good ones and a lot of good ones. Fortunately, not all the I should I don't want to say bad ones, but the ones that are not as easy to work with are, um, still there, unfortunately.

Annie Schwab: I can see walking in the room being like, it's you again. You know, like.

Alan Pinck: I can look at the letterhead and I see, oh my gosh.

Annie Schwab: Right, right, I guess so.

Roger Harris: You [00:18:30] know, you mentioned being friendly to people. I know one person. You know, you've and I think you're right, by the way, that the best thing you can do is treat the auditor with the equal respect that you would expect to be treating your client would expect to be treated, because in theory, we're just trying to get to the right answer. I mean, it's not a game. We're not competing. But I know someone that every time that they would because, you know, auditors a lot of times would come to our offices to, to do these things. Um, and he would always [00:19:00] put them in a room with no heat or no air conditioning, just make it miserable in theory, because they would be so miserable they wouldn't stay as long.

Annie Schwab: Oh.

Roger Harris: That's one way to work.

Alan Pinck: Well, I'll give you I'll give you a hint to do this. I have a hard, fast rule in my office. I don't care what time you want to start, but at noon I break for lunch and I close the office and I'll leave. You're welcome to do whatever you want. You want to eat lunch and you want to work. Work? Eat your lunch while you're working. [00:19:30] You can do that in the lobby. You can do that in your car. But I'm locked in the office.

Roger Harris: You're not doing it here.

Alan Pinck: You're doing it here. And for the most part, they learn after the first time to get here early because they leave at noon and then they're gone for the day. Everybody wins.

Roger Harris: Yeah.

Annie Schwab: There you go.

Alan Pinck: Yeah, but no, I make them very comfortable. I've got a nice space here. I put them in a big conference table and let them stretch out and have, you know, I even offered them a spare monitor if they want. They don't take me up on it, but I offer it [00:20:00] to them, so I want.

Roger Harris: Them. Ultimately, you're probably going to get and we'll get into a little bit more about how you transition from tax prep to, uh, representation. But you end up at some point there's going to be a time that the two of you are going to have to negotiate something, you know, or get them to agree to something that you that's close to maybe not perfect, and you're going to get a lot more agreements if you get along with someone than if you're adversarial with them. So, um, [00:20:30] I never understood it, but yeah. In fact, I think I think even you know how when coffee sits in a pot for a while, how old it gets, he would never make new coffee. He'd just leave the bad stuff in there, and everybody in the office knew not to go drink it. But the auditor would just like, come on, man, this is this is that's smell.

Annie Schwab: Yeah, yeah. That's true.

Roger Harris: Yeah.

Annie Schwab: Yeah.

Alan Pinck: It's, uh, you know, I don't see I remind the auditors there's the 80 over 20 rule, you [00:21:00] know, and we have to live. We live with that. But again, it's not about me against them. Now, I do run into them. And right now we've got a handful that I'm working with that are young and new. And they feel they have something to prove. But I, you know, I just bite my tongue.

Roger Harris: Yeah.

Alan Pinck: And remind them that we're here for the same thing. To make sure the returns substantially correct.

Roger Harris: Right. Talk a little bit about most I think most of our listeners are in the tax prep [00:21:30] business, and probably their representation is probably how you started, maybe limited to a couple of notices they get or something or maybe, uh, maybe an audit. I mean, aren't there skill you need beyond knowing? Knowing how to prepare a tax return to me is is one skill. Knowing how to represent somebody before the IRS. Yes, it's taxes, but it's a different knowledge and different skills. Am I right when I tell that [00:22:00] to somebody?

Alan Pinck: Yes and no. Okay. It is a different knowledge and skill in that you've got to remember what tax year you're working in.

Roger Harris: Right.

Alan Pinck: You know especially when we have a big change. You know, we're dealing with um, you know after Tcga as an example, I'm still dealing with an unreimbursed employee business audits. Yeah.

Roger Harris: Yeah.

Alan Pinck: So you've got this change going on where you're learning today's tax law and dealing with yesterday's tax law, which [00:22:30] we're going through again right now. Right now. Now, fortunately, you know, there's a lot of changes, but a lot of the changes are not as drastic as they were in Tcga because we already used to it. So you do have that skill level. The other thing is you have to learn one thing I stress when I'm when I'm speaking especially, or talking to anybody that says I want to get into representation. I'm a big one in believing in staying in your lane. Pick a direction because you really have two types of representation. [00:23:00] You have examination and collections.

Roger Harris: Right.

Alan Pinck: And, you know, there's people that really love collection work and there's people that really love examination work. And I learned that I love examination work, but collection work I'll leave to somebody else. The only time we get involved with collection work is when my client doesn't owe the money. They just need somebody to figure it out. Why? And the IRS. And again, that's a special niche in itself. But, you know, collection work, it's [00:23:30] a tough one to deal with. And that's definitely a specialty examination work. When you think about it, you're you're dealing with a tax return that you may have prepared or somebody else prepared, but the tax laws or tax law, and it's a matter of what you need to support it. Right. In a recent, you know, this morning I had an email with a client who was he said, well, I don't have any receipts. I've got my credit cards and my bank account. Well [00:24:00] that's great. That'll tell me who you paid and how much you paid them, but didn't tell me what it was for. Now, and I have no problem with an audit. With an auditor saying it's home, it's Office Depot, rather, And it's under $100. It's office supplies. People aren't going to go there to go grocery shopping kind of thing. But at Costco, it doesn't matter what the expense is. And, you know, and when you get into some other, you know, best buys or places like that, you can it could be anything. So yes, [00:24:30] it can be office, but it also can be personal. So you need to have that much more unfortunate taxpayer doesn't always know that and be able to explain that. That's the other challenge. But when you get into collections I mean that's a niche in itself. I mean, you have to understand all of the the rules behind what the IRS will accept versus what the what the taxpayer pays out. As for expenses, as an example.

Roger Harris: Yeah. And I think that I think you've articulated it better than I did. I think what I was trying [00:25:00] to say is collection is something totally different. I mean, that that's something that just doing a tax return doesn't necessarily teach you and help you understand the options for payment. You know your rights to offer less. You know offers in compromise. You know all the different installment agreements. And when? When is it automatic and when do you have to, you know, and just just straight out negotiating because client doesn't have the money and what are the rights and things like [00:25:30] that. So yeah, I think that's where it's really different that I mean any we know people that do it, but.

Annie Schwab: I know it's too emotional for me. Like I, you know, the fighting and the I don't know, I feel like I'm going through like a bad divorce or something when I'm trying to, like, negotiate, you know, you know what? They can pay, what they can afford, what will they accept? What is the timeline? You know, all all of that. Um, but I the I could see I think I would enjoy the representation part, especially for those clients [00:26:00] that you really know. Um, you know, you understand their business, you understand how they're operating, how their books work. You know that that to me would be like, no, we're good. We and the 8020 rule applies. But like, you know, we're good. We did our due diligence. We have our support. You know, we believe that returns accurate. Everybody makes mistakes.

Alan Pinck: But you know that's all well and good. Anyone you work with, somebody that you know and you and you and you dealt with. But those returns aren't the ones that are being audited [00:26:30] because you did a good job. You know, it's the ones that you know a lot of what I obviously we're most of what I deal with has been good 15 years since I've dealt with my own work. Represent um, what I deal with is a lot of self prepared or, you know, professionally prepared. That is just really bad. Mhm. Right now I've got four cases in San Francisco that the a [00:27:00] ghost preparer.

Annie Schwab: Okay.

Alan Pinck: Okay. And they charged the taxpayer 20% of the refunds.

Annie Schwab: Okay.

Alan Pinck: Okay. Which got them in. You know which $20,000 plus refunds. Federal. Forget the state filed another ten from the state. And these returns were so bad that after I got the first one, then this, then the second one, I came across my desk. As soon as I looked at the return, I said, I know this, I know [00:27:30] your prayer was. I said, what do you mean? I said, the prayer was so and so well, how do you know? I said, because a it signed so prepared at the bottom, and B I'm representing somebody else with a similarly bad return. Within a week, two more cases came into my office.

Annie Schwab: At least the bad prepares consistent. I mean, he's making the same mistakes on every return that you get.

Alan Pinck: Well, consistent. Otherwise it was like, yeah, you know, right now what I'm trying to do, unfortunately with the IRS shutdown, it's not happening. But, [00:28:00] you know, I'm trying to get C.I. to get involved because OPR and RPO really can't do anything in these situations, right? You know, I did get to California.

Roger Harris: What are you dealing with? Many of the credit problems now from employee retention to, um, gosh, tribal credits and conservation easements? Or are you seeing much of that right now? I know those going on and there's some big money involved, but is it getting to, to to you those [00:28:30] kind of cases.

Alan Pinck: You know, the IRC stuff that I'm that's coming across my desk has really been more in the, um, collection side of things.

Roger Harris: Okay.

Alan Pinck: In the sense that, uh, the taxpayer was banking on the IRC, things were not applied correctly. Um, so their payments were made, they weren't associated properly. I had a couple of those kind of cases. Um, right now I've got one case where I don't think the taxpayer was entitled to the IRC. The bookkeeper [00:29:00] prepared the IRC for them based on the rules as they originally were written, but as the rules changed. Oh, no longer entitled the taxpayers a small tax liability based on this not being assessed properly. I told her, I suggest to your client, I can't, you know, my my, my my thought to you would tell your client, pay this money and either amend those returns and pay back the CRC, which is going to cost some six figures.

Roger Harris: Right?

Alan Pinck: Or keep your [00:29:30] fingers crossed, but pay to pay the small amount due and let you get the IRS stop looking in this direction because the based on the way the rule changed. He's not entitled or I shouldn't say the rule changed. The rule got clarified, right? Because, you know, when the government's infinite wisdom, Congress likes to do a lot of good, but they don't always think it all the way through. No, no, no. And then the.

Annie Schwab: Intentions were good, but the the rollout didn't go so well.

Alan Pinck: Right, [00:30:00] right. The iris is forced to implement something that they don't fully understand themselves. And then more clarification comes about. Things change. Yeah. Now the one thing right now is captive insurance.

Roger Harris: Explain that to everybody because I'm not sure everybody knows what that is.

Alan Pinck: This is you know, I'm not seeing it personally. You know, I'd love to get one of these cases, but these are going these are pretty large numbers. Again, micro captive insurance is where you basically you self-insure through a third through a vendor of some sort. [00:30:30] And they have they're similar to the, um, conservation easements. Not all the I's are dotted and T's are crossed.

Roger Harris: Right.

Alan Pinck: And people feel that they can take advantage of these and they're being looked at very strongly.

Annie Schwab: Mhm.

Roger Harris: Yeah.

Alan Pinck: So if your client comes in and wants to talk about a micro captive insurance and you fully don't understand it, don't touch it. Find somebody that doesn't understand it and make sure that they're doing everything they're supposed to do. Similarly [00:31:00] to the cost segregation studies when they first rolled out.

Roger Harris: Yeah, I think the one thing that maybe saves us in some of these credit areas is the IRS is looking at some really big dollar claims that I won't speak for and for Allan, but our clients typically aren't buying into investments of $2 million, conservation easement deduction and things like that, you know? But day after day you read court cases where people have just, you know, they buy a piece of land [00:31:30] for 200,030 days later, they say it's worth 200 million. You know, they it's like, oh, come on.

Annie Schwab: Something's not right.

Roger Harris: Yeah. You know, and you're surprised that they're looking at it. I mean, there's big money there.

Alan Pinck: And it was funny, I was I don't know if you're familiar with Ed Zollars, CPA of Arizona. Yeah, I wasn't one of his, uh, podcast. And he was talking about how if your client comes in and says, this is an attorney says this is okay. And [00:32:00] they bring in a phone book. For those of you who remember, phone books used to be like this, like reading a phone book or paperwork. That's another thing.

Roger Harris: A lot of people don't remember doing tax returns by hand. Phone books.

Alan Pinck: Uh, yeah, I'm dating myself again. But, um, he was saying, unless you are willing to spend the time to go through that, analyze it, read it, and really understand it, don't advise on it.

Roger Harris: Yeah, yeah.

Alan Pinck: And it makes a whole lot of sense. It does.

Roger Harris: It looks too good to be true. It probably [00:32:30] is.

Alan Pinck: Yeah. Generally speaking.

Roger Harris: What would you tell somebody that wanted to get into representation work that's not in now where would you go? What how would you advise them to learn what they need to learn how to go about doing it? I mean, how do you even price for the work? I mean, you do it by the hour. Do you set fees? I mean, I'll ask the question, knowing the answer. Do you charge a percentage of the results. Um, you know, where does somebody go [00:33:00] that right now is just basically doing prep work, but they want to expand their business into more representation. What would you advise them to do?

Alan Pinck: Well, not not everybody is willing to jump in feet first. And if you are willing to jump in feet first, take one case at a time. Yeah. And don't worry about a mistake is the second time because you get a chance to learn the first time you learn. If you didn't learn the second time you [00:33:30] did, it's a mistake. Now there's programs out there. And of course, NEA, I'm a I'm, you know, involved with NEA. For many years I was chair of education and he has a program, the National Tax Practice Institute. It's been around for about 40 some years now. Um, taught by people. It's a three level fellowship program just in representation, taught by people in the field doing the work. This is not taught out of a book. This is real world. Um, as [00:34:00] a matter of fact, the end of October, we're doing, uh, level one webinar live online. Online. Oh, and, um, I'll be doing the I'll be doing the a lot of classes on that, and I'll be telling stories about what I'm doing in my office this week. So it's, it's really going on and how it's being handled. So it's, it's that kind of thing. There's other programs out there as well. That and there's people out there that that sell a lot of good. And there's people out there that sell a lot of talk. [00:34:30]

Roger Harris: Yep.

Alan Pinck: So I would encourage you to if you want to get into this, find somebody that's doing it and and mentor with them. Maybe start with a, you know, if you want to get into collection work. There's a lot of big collection companies out there. There's a lot of big names that that do very good work. There's a lot of big names that So maybe not so much to good work, but.

Annie Schwab: Proceed with caution. Got it.

Alan Pinck: Fortunately, a few of those have been weeded out, but you can go and find [00:35:00] work for them. They're always looking to hire. And if you find work with somebody like that, great for examination work. There's companies out there that sell audit memberships or audit protection plans. It could be the big box, the big box stores. It could be, um, you know, something that goes through, I think, like legal, uh, one of the, what do they call it? Prepaid legal.

Roger Harris: Oh, yeah. Prepaid. Yeah.

Alan Pinck: I believe they have that also. They're always looking for people. So [00:35:30] that's a stepping stone. Look for a way to get in so that you could, um, get a feel for it. Plus, they've already got systems in place.

Roger Harris: Yeah.

Alan Pinck: You know, I was listening to one not too long ago. They they reached out to me and they said, well, but you have to work for us because all our stuff is proprietary.

Roger Harris: Yeah, I.

Alan Pinck: Didn't get I didn't get your cases. It's one thing, but I'm not going to I don't work, I can't work for anybody anymore. It's too too long.

Roger Harris: So the NBA courses deal with both the audit [00:36:00] side and the collection side.

Alan Pinck: The whole the whole gamut.

Roger Harris: Everything. Okay.

Alan Pinck: An appeals. There's another niche right there.

Roger Harris: Right appeal. Knowing knowing how the appeals process works and.

Alan Pinck: Exactly.

Roger Harris: When to ask for it and what to expect and all that sort of stuff. And yeah, yeah, interesting, interesting.

Annie Schwab: I know you've you've dabbled in so many different things.

Alan Pinck: Well, I don't sit still very well and I like to learn.

Annie Schwab: So there [00:36:30] you go.

Roger Harris: Yeah I think that's one good trait. If you're going to be in this business, you really need to be inspired to learn and to do better. Because if you, you, you know, it's not in your control that things change. And if you're not willing to change with them, you're going to be outdated pretty quickly.

Alan Pinck: Well, I've gone I've gone on a stage many times, Roger, and said that I've been doing this for over 30 years, and I'll be the first to admit I know nothing about taxes.

Annie Schwab: That's how you started.

Alan Pinck: I wanted to think. I figured it [00:37:00] out. I'll quit. You know, I stopped learning. I don't want to learn anymore. So that's. Yeah, that's the way I've got to be.

Roger Harris: I've heard him say that in groups. So he is not lying. I've heard him make that statement many times. And it's true. I mean, if we know something, we only know what it is today. We don't have any idea what it could be tomorrow.

Alan Pinck: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Annie Schwab: So how did you get into, uh, tax talk today?

Alan Pinck: Well, there's a fun story. The, uh. Nea puts the panelists [00:37:30] for tax talk, and years ago, we used to be before the dark times, I should say.

Roger Harris: Yeah.

Alan Pinck: Before we were into going to DC in a studio and do the shows. So I was invited to be a panelist, I I'd say 3 or 4 times, um, over the maybe four years or so prior to me becoming the, uh, moderator. And then the owner of TikTok at the time was decided it was time for her to retire. And [00:38:00] the moderator, who had been there since the beginning, also decided he wasn't retired. So I get an email from the owner and she said, do I know anybody? That would be, um, that would be a good moderator. So I responded with an email to her, can we have a conversation? So we set up the call and she said, and I said to her, would you consider me? And she said, that's why I sent you the email. I was kind of hoping that would. Yeah. And here we are. Um, [00:38:30] 2019. So six years later, I'm moderator of TikTok today, and I'm loving every minute of it.

Annie Schwab: That's fantastic.

Roger Harris: Yeah, I'm surprised we didn't cross paths because I remember when when it was in the studio in DC. The moderator then was Les Whitmer. Um, he was from Atlanta. So many times when I would I got invited 2 or 3 times. You got invited 2 or 3 times. And yet we never got invited at the same time. Um, a lot of times I'd find myself on the plane with les.

Alan Pinck: I was going to say, you know, we would share a cab back [00:39:00] to the airport, but I was going in a different direction at that point, so.

Roger Harris: Yeah. And that's was big into golf. And he was also working with the Golf Channel. So we had that in common, which was an interesting guy. And then Covid hit and I kind of lost track with tech stocks today. And next thing I look up and there's Alan.

Alan Pinck: Well Roger, that reminds me I've got a class in mind for you this year.

Roger Harris: Okay.

Alan Pinck: Okay. We're doing it. And don't take this personally.

Annie Schwab: Uh oh. [00:39:30]

Alan Pinck: Okay. I think it'll be right up your alley. And basically, it's the older taxpayer retirement and that kind of stuff conversation. I think you'd have a lot of fun with that one.

Roger Harris: Yeah, I would, yeah, I would, yeah, because I fit into that definition. So I would be talking about real life experiences more than anything.

Alan Pinck: I was bouncing off of somebody young. We'll see what see what I can pull off here.

Roger Harris: Well, that won't be hard to find somebody younger than me to bounce it off. It would be much harder to [00:40:00] find somebody older than me. So, uh. But. Yeah. So I'm assuming you enjoy doing what you're doing. It's all virtual now, right? Yeah. Studio in DC is not not there anymore.

Alan Pinck: Yes.

Roger Harris: I miss the makeup and the test. It was like going on a TV. You had TV cameras and you had to put the makeup on, and you sat there and, uh, I remember one of the cameramen was also from Georgia, and. And when he wasn't doing TikTok today, he was filming NFL and college football. Oh, cool. Interesting, interesting. He was [00:40:30] a camera guy for. So we got, you know, so we got along good. But yeah, it was interesting dynamic when you're sitting on a it's not done live is it. You're you're filming I mean you're recording it. It's not live, right?

Annie Schwab: Oh.

Alan Pinck: Sorry. Yeah, we, you know, we put it out, we do record. We put it out live. Yeah. So we'll answer questions live during the show.

Roger Harris: Oh, okay. All right. Because I remember that was the interesting thing because, I mean, you were literally sitting there with people you didn't know, but you knew less, but you didn't know the other 3 or 4 people there, and [00:41:00] you were on camera. And when somebody would say something and you're going, I don't agree with that, or that's wrong, trying to not make it known to everybody that, um, and you did a the one thing I mean, I'm telling stories. You did this too. You did a whole show before the show to kind of test everything. And the day before you came in and you traded ideas and you told everybody what you were going to say. And when we did the rehearsal, one of the panelists basically stole everything. I was going [00:41:30] to say that he heard me say the day before.

Alan Pinck: That's that's usually the case. You know, Interestingly that's happened. That happens all the time. But that also happened to me on the, uh, the panel of doctors forums. Oh, well, more than once. But yeah, that does happen. And, you know, even though we're recording it, that still happens. We'll catch something. It's like, you know, I heard that, but I'm not sure. Let's [00:42:00] go back and revisit that question again and let's get let's make sure we get this thing right. Being live, you never know what's going to happen. And I've had I remember having one panelist just get up there and just freeze.

Roger Harris: Yeah. Well, I remember telling this guy because, I mean, I knew exactly what he said because I said it first, and we did the rehearsal. So, you know, then you have a break in between the rehearsal and the live show where they bring in lunch and all that sort of stuff. So we're just sitting there at lunch, and I just look across from him and said, I'll tell you something. When we do this live, [00:42:30] you do what you just did this morning and take everything I said, that cup of water on the table. I'm pouring it over your head.

Annie Schwab: Making friends. Roger. You sure know how to do it.

Roger Harris: So he talked about something else?

Alan Pinck: Yeah. Good. Think.

Roger Harris: Very good. Yeah, yeah, that's a good show, though. It's great. You know, if you don't listen to it, you need to. Or don't subscribe to it. It's a subscription, right. You can subscribe to it and it's CPE. Let's don't forget you can get CPE.

Alan Pinck: Right now we [00:43:00] have a, um, we have our special before the end of the year. You sign up for the next 12 months. That's it. There's a 20% discount on the CD package.

Annie Schwab: Oh, nice.

Alan Pinck: And, um, this month's show, the October show is on virtual currency. Great show. I had, uh, Thai. And she is brilliant. Absolutely brilliant when it comes to crypto type of stuff. That's that's what she does. And it's all she breathes this stuff, and I just. I was in awe. I just let her talk, you know?

Roger Harris: Yeah.

Alan Pinck: I was in awe for [00:43:30] her knowledge of this stuff. It was it was brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. And next month. If you haven't got your ethics yet and you can buy a CD package just for or just the two CDs that you need. Sharon Friske is going to be joining us.

Roger Harris: Yeah, I saw that look. I looked through the schedule, I saw Sharon. That'll be great. Yeah.

Alan Pinck: So it should be fun. It should be a fun show.

Roger Harris: I think I have ethics, but I don't think I have my ethics hours.

Alan Pinck: So there you go. I'll be looking for you. Yeah, I might even. [00:44:00] I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Depends on if they're open or not, but open. Wanted to introduce themselves again, so I might still have somebody from NPR on the show as well.

Roger Harris: Are you still able to get hours? Guess what? Have you done a show during the shutdown? I mean, is that an issue?

Alan Pinck: Well, during the shutdown, no, they won't get. As a matter of fact, my first show as as, uh, as the moderator was 19. And what what do we have then? But the [00:44:30] shutdown And, you know, at the last minute there was no IRS and I had to kind of wing it with, uh, Dave and Mary Mellon, which were great. They're always great to have on the update show. And I think I also had Claudia Health, not mistaken. Yeah, but it was, uh, it was quite entertaining to he has to be flexible. You know, you have to be my July show. We had to postpone till till August because in July we did a credit show. And, um, what [00:45:00] happened? But the bill came out in the middle of the month and about that episode. So my IRS person couldn't be on it.

Roger Harris: Yeah. Well, that's the that's the beauty of and the challenge of live events is you gotta be flexible and you gotta just do what it takes.

Alan Pinck: Yeah.

Roger Harris: We do a good job. You do a good job. It's a good show. I highly recommend it to people who are looking for ways to. There's so many ways. I mean, like, you [00:45:30] can go to CPE credit for listening to this, right? Cpe for going to tax talk today. There's so many ways now that you can get your credits that, you know, uh, mix it up a little bit. You don't have to like I said, you don't have to go sit in a classroom much. Half the people sleep while you're supposedly learning.

Alan Pinck: Well, a lot of people don't realize that tax talk today was started by the IRS. Yeah, they they're the one that branded the show and they wanted to get their message out. And now to make. Well, because it's a little difference is that [00:46:00] we're conversational. This isn't a lecture. This is not, you know, a C typical C class. I asked a question. I get the answers. You never know what's going to be said, which makes it that much more fun.

Roger Harris: Yeah, yeah. And it's interactive. It's always better than being lectured to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, you mentioned teaching. You know, Annie, you've seen him, you know, at the forums.

Annie Schwab: I've seen you at the forums. Yeah.

Roger Harris: And one thing you can always count [00:46:30] on when you go to the IRS forms. They're great events and you should go to them. But the classes put on by the Allens of the world are much better than put on by the others. Let's just say, because they're going to be more interactive, they're going to be there. But you must love teaching because you do so much of it. How'd you get into it? And what kind of makes you happy about teaching?

Alan Pinck: Yeah, I was never bashful. I might not have noticed that about me.

Roger Harris: Yeah, I'll never know.

Alan Pinck: And [00:47:00] I always enjoy the stage. So I got into teaching because to me, if you want to learn something, you have to teach. It takes me a good 8 to 10 hours of writing and research and writing, rather to put one hour of education together. You can't learn it any better than a teacher because you can't get up in front and tax. Short, short short of [00:47:30] Japan. Tax professionals will call you out in a heartbeat. Yeah. They think that you're if they don't agree with what you have to say. And you know and I'd say short of Japan because in Japan I got an opportunity to speak to the Japanese Society of Enrolled Agents a couple of times. And they're everything you said was cold. And I asked him, why don't you ever say anything? And they said, because the teacher is always right. That's the way we're taught. And it's like, well, the teacher is not always right, he says, but we're never going to [00:48:00] touch, you know that. So, you know, in the real world that's not the reality. And you get out there and you have to do it. Now, when I wanted to get myself started, I started my local chapter, you know, lunch meetings and dinner meetings, those kind of things. And then from there, I just kept on going until I got to the stage. But it takes a while. Yeah, it takes polish.

Roger Harris: And you got to feel comfortable getting up there. So, um, and even doing this, even though it's not live [00:48:30] and nobody there's not staring out at the audience. I mean, I know any you speak for yourself, but, you know, you gain a little higher degree of confidence in yourself. And, uh, you're right. You got to know something before you bring it up. You'd be kind of stupid to bring up something. You didn't know what you were talking about, but, uh, you know. Yeah, I've seen it done.

Alan Pinck: Uh, you know, I don't.

Annie Schwab: Sorry. I don't like to watch myself after. Like, I don't like to watch myself the recording or the the after, um, show, but I [00:49:00] enjoy doing the the podcasts. Yeah.

Roger Harris: So any somebody you need to get on tax talk today, she'd be great on some of those things she's up to. She's um, she's, she's, you know, she leads up our tax team so she knows what she's talking about. So, um, get her get her on the show.

Alan Pinck: Well, most definitely have to do that. Yeah, definitely have to Do that looking. Always looking for new faces. More people. Right? It brings more perspective to the conversation. [00:49:30]

Annie Schwab: Of course.

Roger Harris: Right. Yeah, of course it does. Of course it does. Um, we're about to run out of time. What else do we need to talk about? Annie, you got anything we need to talk about? What have you missed anything? We could talk to Alan for another two hours. We have to turn the recording off.

Annie Schwab: But no, I mean, this has been. This has been great. I love to hear about all your achievements and and where you're going and what your passions are. Um, I I'm jealous of your of all your big projects and wins [00:50:00] and staying in the know and always wanting to learn more and always wanting to teach others your ambitions. Fantastic, I love it.

Alan Pinck: Well, that's quite, quite flattering and I do appreciate that. Thank you.

Roger Harris: I'm going to ask you this like you're a rock star, which I guess in our profession you are, you know, where are you performing after? You know, besides tax talk today, if someone wants to take advantage of your knowledge and hear you speak. Are you? I think you've told me. You've got some places you're talking in the future.

Alan Pinck: Well, next month I'll be at my local [00:50:30] chapters luncheon in San Jose, California, doing a, uh, ethics class.

Roger Harris: Okay.

Alan Pinck: And I mentioned NPY online, a webinar going on at the end of the end of October and starting in November, going mid-November through the end of January, I'll be speaking for Speidel Publishing out of Southern California. Uh, updates. It is time for the update season. Right. We do quite a few webinars [00:51:00] throughout the year, and as well as some I think we're going to be non live locations as well. So then go to Celtics.com and check that out. Great organization a lot of good good education if you need California stuff. They're the place to go. Yeah yeah better place to go. But it's federal and California as far as the updates are concerned.

Roger Harris: Right? Right. So not hard to find.

Alan Pinck: Not hard to find.

Roger Harris: Well, and one thing I can promise you, you can find Alan and his lovely wife [00:51:30] Debbie every day at 5:00, enjoying a martini.

Alan Pinck: That's right. And today is what we do.

Roger Harris: That's a great way to end the day.

Alan Pinck: Yeah, well, 515, if I get home a little late, we have to go for a walk first.

Roger Harris: Oh, okay. All right, so maybe 515. And if you ever want to go out to dinner, his history in the hospitality business will come to, uh, visible when you go out to dinner with Alan and Debbie. So. And we've had a pleasure to have him join [00:52:00] us a couple of times. Uh, this has been great, Alan. Thank you for doing this.

Annie Schwab: And thank you.

Alan Pinck: Well, thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

Roger Harris: It's always great to bring in guest and have someone with great experience and diversity of skills. And, uh, I hope everybody enjoyed this one. This was this has been great. Any any final thoughts about this? I mean, I guess we got to start thinking now. We're past October 15th. We got to start digging into the what are we calling it now, the big beautiful Bill or the. What did you say [00:52:30] when you interviewed OB three? No, the big beautiful Billy or what?

Annie Schwab: Oh, yeah.

Alan Pinck: When I, when I got to, uh, interview Billy Long, he, he made it a point to let me know that, uh, why was left off one big Billy act, not the one. Well.

Roger Harris: Okay. Well, there you go. Never made it long enough for that to be true, though.

Annie Schwab: Yeah.

Alan Pinck: So be.

Annie Schwab: It. No. Hopefully we'll have some updates. Hopefully [00:53:00] the government will open up and we'll get some guidance, additional information about, you know, how tax season is going to kick off. Um, but until then we just wait.

Roger Harris: Yep.

Alan Pinck: Most important thing to do right now, folks, is to plan what you're going to be doing on April 16th and make all your plans are in place so that you know what's going to happen.

Roger Harris: That's right. That's the most important day of tax season is April 16th.

Annie Schwab: I like that idea.

Roger Harris: All [00:53:30] right. Well Alan, again thank you so much. I hope we our paths crossed sooner than later. Uh, always great to spend time with Alan, both here and in person. And Annie, always with you. It's always great to to have you. And, um, thank you for the listeners. Because if you guys don't listen, we won't be here long. So thank you for for joining us. And thanks again to Alan. Thanks to all of you. Uh, if you enjoyed this, tell your friends about it and we'll be back soon with another federal tax [00:54:00] update podcast. So long everyone.