There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.

Roger Harris: Hello everyone. It's another federal tax update podcast. I'm Roger Harris and joined, as always by Annie Schwab. Annie, how are you today?

Annie Schwab: Doing pretty good. Um, my kids are back in school. We're almost to that final tax deadline. Um, things are going well for me here in Dallas. How about you?

Roger Harris: Yeah, pretty much the same. We're kind of riding things out. It's actually kind of quiet. You know, there's [00:00:30] a lot of questions about the, you know, the big beautiful Bill or whatever we're calling it now, and we're still getting a little drips and drabs of some information. Not everything we need yet. So we actually thought we would do something a little different today, maybe lighten it up a little bit, give you a little different twist. Uh, while we wait for more definitive information on the tax bill. So, Annie, why don't you talk a little bit about kind of what we're going to do today?

Annie Schwab: Yeah, sure. So over the summer, um members [00:01:00] of the Paget firm from our team attended the IRS forums. There were five of them. Um, actually, Roger presented a practice management session at all of them. Um, and like I said, we had members of our team, um, some of our marketing team, we had booths at some I attended, um, the one in New Orleans. Um, overall, the the content seemed to be, um, very interesting. Uh, we did notice that there were some reoccurring questions from the attendees. [00:01:30] Um, some of those kind of pageant was able to, to reconcile and add to and answer. Um, but it was just interesting to see the dynamics and see how each location had some similar topics or questions coming from the attendees. Um, so today we thought we'd bring in a couple of our team members, actually, um, to talk about what we heard, what we saw, how the forums went. Um, and we'll start with Roger.

Roger Harris: Yeah. The forums, you know, [00:02:00] as Andy mentioned, we went to five this year. We've actually been at least I've been to 15 over the last three years. Yeah. And one of the things that that I did was moderate a panel on practice management. And I think the, the IRS recognized that running a successful tax and accounting firm, while it's vitally important, you know, tax law, you know, accounting rules, you know, all those sorts of things, it's also important that you know how to run a business. So that that generated [00:02:30] these, um, practice management sessions that I moderated with four panelists from the different associations and, and what all of us. And you sat in on some I know some of our other guests will talk about, you know, introduce later sat in on some I sat in on all of them and and what I heard was 2 or 3 consistent challenges that people in the industry are facing. They're probably not going to be a surprise to you when we mention them. And so what we thought we'd do is if [00:03:00] it was good enough for the IRS forums that, you know, people were experiencing these problems and needed help and wanted to have a chance to get a little guidance on it, that maybe we should dedicate one podcast to talking on the top 3 or 4 issues that we heard consistently this year, all three years, and bring in our staff people to give you their perspective on it and hopefully it might help you some. Again, like I prefaced each of those sessions at each forums, we're not going to solve every problem [00:03:30] in the next hour, all right? But we can acknowledge that you're not alone in having these problems and that there are some basic things that probably work for most of us, and there's just some things that are going to be challenging. So let me give you an NFC. I want you to validate because you sat in on some of these sessions. A big issue that everyone's have is hiring of course.

Annie Schwab: And it's been like that since COVID. Honestly. Right. Or even even before Covid? Maybe. But I feel like the the pain [00:04:00] point just got worse during Covid and I don't think we've recovered. So definitely, definitely a topic for discussion.

Roger Harris: Uh, the other one we heard a lot and it was all said in different ways and they can blend together is how to price the work that you are doing. Are you pricing it properly? Are you underpriced? How do you raise prices? How do you know if you're competitive with your marketplace? What systems do you need to track prices to make sure you have a system for raising, you know, just a lot around pricing [00:04:30] and questions about whether they were getting paid for what they're doing.

Annie Schwab: Um, what's a fair price? Right. Yeah.

Roger Harris: And how do you get there if you're not there?

Annie Schwab: Right.

Roger Harris: And the last one and all of this kind of leads up to the end result of having a successful firm is so that you have a firm that people will buy when it's time for you to retire. So all of these things that we talked about have immediate benefit in terms of solving the immediate problem of today, [00:05:00] but in a bigger sense, they're building that foundation and that firm that people will want to have when it's time for you to retire and you want to sell and retire and give your equity to someone else. All of these things are important for that. And so the third point is, is how to have a growing firm which revolves around marketing and communication. How do you communications is going to come into play when it costs about raising prices? Because, [00:05:30] you know, how do you communicate price increases. So. So the three things are hiring pricing and systems and marketing. And those were the things you think we got them right.

Annie Schwab: I think we got them right. And each one of them I feel like they all work together. It's not like, oh, you can just focus on one. It's almost like all three of them need to be addressed simultaneously. Or yeah, they all kind of work together. And, um, and I think that's [00:06:00] a lot. I mean, it's a lot for a business, small business owner to take on, um, and to, to think about all at one time. But it does they do they do affect each other and they need to be part of a, a plan and a system. And it won't. Like you said, we're not going to answer everybody's questions all concerns. But and it's not going to happen overnight. This is definitely a process. Um, something that is going to require small business owners to to work on and see what's working, what's not working, make changes. Um, you know, just [00:06:30] because you, you know, for example, raising prices. Well, if you raise prices, I don't know, 20% this year or 10%. I mean, that doesn't mean you never have to raise prices again. So it's going to be something that needs to be revisited, looked at, um, and tweaked. So yeah.

Roger Harris: And all of this ultimately, as you mentioned, it'll take time, but in a perfect world, you get all these things addressed and they continue to stay addressed. And then when it comes time to sell your business, you've got a modern looking firm that people want to buy and. [00:07:00]

Annie Schwab: Result.

Roger Harris: In a result. So with that, we're going to start with hiring. So let me explain to you who we're going to bring in. We're going to bring in our CEO Jeff Phillips. Now Jeff has been with Paget for about five years. And if there's a hiring or staffing issue in our company, either for ourselves or our franchisees, Jeff is the expert we turn to. And that's partly because prior to joining Paget, Jeff started a hiring firm, a staffing firm called Account Fly [00:07:30] that helps find hires for people in the accounting profession. Jeff does not work in that every day anymore, but he still owns it and obviously has a vast bit of experience in this area. So he has Graciously agreed to come and spend a few minutes and give some tips to our listeners. And with that, welcome, Jeff.

Jeff Phillips: Hey, Rodger. Hey, Annie. How are you?

Roger Harris: Good. Good to see you. Great.

Jeff Phillips: You. I was I was [00:08:00] listening to you in the setup there. And Annie made such a great point that pricing and hiring and and just the systems of a firm are all together. They're all strings that you. And if you pull on one, you're going to you're going to pull out slack from the other. And they're all connected. And you're right that they are systems. And we sure heard a lot of questions around that. Rodger, at your panel and at the booth when we were at the IRS tax forums.

Roger Harris: Yeah. You know, and let's address the first thing, because people who are having a hiring challenge, they all which is [00:08:30] natural because it's the way most of us grew up, are thinking about hiring in the in this small little area of our hometown, coming to our building. And that's where they're experiencing the challenge. Now, there's some solutions to that. But Jeff, isn't there a maybe a different way you should approach hiring? To begin with to to make it easier?

Jeff Phillips: Yes, absolutely. I'm going back to when we were at the at the forums. Roger. And whether it was your panel or just talking to people. And we were we were around thousands of tax pros [00:09:00] and business owners. And I got this question, why is it so hard to hire good people and to find good people? So I thought it'd be helpful to break break that down. Why? It is hard, but maybe what people are missing and and what the solutions are. I mean, we're in just numbers that you need to know if you're if you own a firm. We're in a great economy. Our unemployment is low. I think the most recent report was 4.3% for accounting and auditing. It's usually half that number. So what is that two point 1.5%. [00:09:30] So everybody that has a job or that everybody that wants a job has one. The other number that I'm keeping track on is that turnover is pretty high around small accounting firms, around 15 to 20%. What does that mean? That means that staff is voluntarily leaving at accounting firms at a rate of 20% of your staff per year. So we've got a turnover issue and labor rates for accountants have increased. So we know that when we go and make that next hire, the costs to employ somebody is going up. And then [00:10:00] Paget, for our firms, we we're recommending that owners keep their labor costs at 35% of your revenue. You know, sort of a one third, one third, one third model. And firms in the past two years have really been struggling to get that. So with that being said, it's a little difficult to hire, and just posting a job on a job board isn't going to get the the accounting person that you need super easily. There are solutions and there are new ways to think about it. But I always start with when do you hire? And the mindset is you [00:10:30] need to hire now and it's not waiting until there's a crisis hire. It's owners of small firms are struggling with capacity across the board. We heard that Roger so many times at the forums.

Roger Harris: I've said all 15 forms.

Annie Schwab: Right?

Jeff Phillips: And what I keep hearing is the tax seasons are complicated. They're struggling with changing policies. Um, they're overwhelmed with client inbound emails and phone calls. And so I get the sense that we're just not even getting in the game [00:11:00] to try to hire people. But the mindset for a small firm owner is that you're here to build a system that delivers the services to clients, not be the whole system. And don't we see so many owners who are the entire firm?

Annie Schwab: Yes, they're the bottleneck too. And it turns out like they are the ones that are they're not delegating or they don't have the people to delegate to. Maybe. Um, but that that's definitely I see that across most small business [00:11:30] firms.

Jeff Phillips: Well, and they're stuck, you know, their, their, their owners are at capacity. They're the chief tactical officer of the firm, not the chief executive officer of the A firm. And so they're the bottleneck. And and and you just see it over and over again. And they have such a love and passion for serving clients. And they do such essential work. And you just want to pull them aside and say, let's let's get to work. And and so the when to hire always, always be hiring. And I heard Andy mentioned fees a second [00:12:00] ago. Oftentimes you can't get there unless your fees are appropriate there at market rates. You know we all provide at Paget our owners with what the market rates for all the tax work and the accounting and payroll work and and nearly every time we, we talk outside of the firm, um, owners that we're talking to are significantly under the market, under what they deserve. And look, you're competing against Intuit, who is offering entity returns at over $1,700 [00:12:30] per return virtually.

Annie Schwab: I saw that.

Jeff Phillips: That's your you know, so mark that against your value and and you you just need to put money into the firm to be able to hire and keep that target. 35% labor cost of revenue. And so so you can't talk about hiring any without talking about pricing and money, because you need money inside the firm to go and get good people.

Annie Schwab: Absolutely.

Jeff Phillips: Um, I'll tell you one thing that I think has changed in the last couple of years is this is not where you think I'm [00:13:00] going to go with it, but I think it's essential for owners to have an assistant. You can get virtual part time assistants that are based in the US through services like belay. Have you guys heard of belay? You call them, they match you with an executive assistant. They're virtual. You pay them by the hour as little as ten hours per week.

Annie Schwab: Nice.

Jeff Phillips: I have a service. I have an accountant. An accountant. I have virtual assistant. Belay.

Roger Harris: Right.

Jeff Phillips: And this is like, what can an owner expect handling all your inbound email? This is usually [00:13:30] client email concerns. And that can be triaged so that literally you have an assistant saying, hey, Roger, these are the four client emails you need to respond to today, and I'll give you the next 5 or 6 you need to respond to tomorrow. Wouldn't that be nice to just have that capacity for the rest of the day to someone's running your firm?

Annie Schwab: It's the little things that just weigh you down the phone calls, the emails, the scheduling of appointments, you know, all that kind of stuff.

Roger Harris: Yeah, having a system to free up your time for what it's really needed for and not just be [00:14:00] bogged down. So, you know, yeah, maybe the hire that you're talking about, Jeff, is a virtual assistant as opposed to a person that's more difficult to find or that you can't afford. Because I think one thing you said that I found interesting is it maybe isn't such that that there aren't people out there to hire, they're just out of your price range because of what you're charging?

Jeff Phillips: They are.

Annie Schwab: Well, but it's got to be getting easier because I feel like people are working so much more remotely than they were. And so that opens up [00:14:30] the market. Um, I don't know if that makes it harder to train. I don't know, because, you know, you think of like training an employee sitting next to somebody in an in an office or in a conference room, or touring your office and showing them where everything is. But that's not really how it works. I mean, all three of us are in three different states. Um, right. And, you know, so I guess there are challenges to both having, you know, limiting your market to somebody who's who can come into your office. But then [00:15:00] there's challenges if you go the remote route, too.

Jeff Phillips: Sure. Well, let's talk about that. I mean, we we work at a 60 year old accounting firm and, and here in the Dallas area, Rogers at our headquarters in Georgia. And I live in Florida. Uh, Amanda is going to be on later. Is in New Orleans. Mhm. Let's talk about remote work because that's a great solution for firms. And you know we talked about virtual assistants. But let's talk about hiring accountants. I think of staffing [00:15:30] for small accounting firms as a new paradigm, a new model. I call it the new talent stack. And what that talent stack is, is a way that you can get predictable and repeatable hires so that you're building a system. If you're proven that you can't make hires, that's going to affect not only your ability to get the work done, but also the the exit value when you retire. So you've got to build a way to make hiring repeatable and predictable. So three things included in that. Number one is your core staff. That's your accounting managers, your tax managers, [00:16:00] your payroll manager. Um, and you can embrace remote work. If you can hire somebody inside the office locally, great. Go for it. There's ways to do that. But with remote, let's say you're in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and there are 600, 600 CPAs in Tulsa. You got a 1 in 600 chance of prying loose a higher at a 2% unemployment rate to change jobs.

Annie Schwab: Right.

Jeff Phillips: If you zoom out and your job search is national. [00:16:30] Now you're talking about 100 times 660,000, or hundreds of times greater than the 600 that are in one market. And so what's the consequence? Well, you're going to find probably the best person for the job. You're giving them something they want, which is flexibility in in in working for the firm. So you're more attractive as an employer. We our staffing firm accounting fly we we only hire remote CPAs and IAS and they typically fill those jobs within [00:17:00] 30 to 35 days. Wow. We're getting we're getting 700 applications a week right now for remote accounting jobs. So there isn't a talent crisis when you have remote. And so yes, there are changes that have to take place to train and make and make sure people are effective. Um, it's out there and it is so easy and so doable because it might be the best way you're going to make a hire and you've got to [00:17:30] be set up for technology to do that. But let me kind of give the other two sides of this, of this three legged stool.

Jeff Phillips: If leg one is your full time staff should be local or remote wherever you can get them. And I encourage you to look at remote because that's easier, but also freelancer talent. So you can hire people to come in and work on a specific project, and you're only paying them for the project work. You can hire people if you have a key person that's out for maternity leave, or for an extended vacation or a [00:18:00] sickness, you can bring somebody into the firm to do the work on a freelance or project basis. Freelance work goes great for tax season. Maybe we don't want to hire a tax prep person all year long, but we sure need them, you know, January through April 15th. So they come in typically and this is going to need to be remote because the people that are out there that want freelance opportunities are looking for remote opportunities. Yeah. But, um. I learned something the other day. A third of our labor force in [00:18:30] knowledge work is categorized as freelance. Meaning if you gave them a full time job offer, they wouldn't take it.

Annie Schwab: Interesting.

Jeff Phillips: So? So they want those freelance opportunities. And the third leg of the stool is offshore talent. We're starting to see a lot of that at pageant firms. This can be, um, administrative roles, assistant roles, people that are setting up tax returns, people that are setting up accounting work. A lot of great. [00:19:00] I mean, the economics are great on it because you can hire somebody for a few thousand dollars, a couple thousand dollars a month, um, at a, at a significant discount. And so I see small firms opportunity in hiring as embracing remote work. Of course, that means we've got to change up some of the technology. Your tax and accounting should be able to be accessed over the web. Pretty easy solution there. Once you have that, you can hire anybody in the country for, you know, full time, essential roles. You plug in freelancers [00:19:30] that are typically remote for project based work, so you're not paying those full time annual fees. And then offshore talent. And I call that the new talent stack, because that's how I'm seeing firms maintain those competitive, um, labor. You know, we want you to 35% of your revenue. That's how you get there. And good price management, increasing your prices so you can cut down your labor costs. You're building a predictable and repeatable system of hiring people, which which is going to make your life so much better. Yeah. [00:20:00] And then you, um, and then you have your staff. You know, you're not overwhelmed all the time. So those those are the ways I think about that. Um, and it's, it's a lot easier than people think to get into this.

Roger Harris: Yeah. I've heard I've heard you say that a lot, and I've heard you say. And I, I think you said it here again. There's not a talent shortage if you're hiring remotely. There's plenty of people at accounting flying other places like that looking for remote work, but you have to be in a position to hire remotely. [00:20:30] So I hear that. Then I hear people who say they're all having difficulty hiring people, but they're all doing it locally. And maybe the solution is not that there's a talent gap. There's a gap in understanding where the talent is.

Jeff Phillips: Yeah. And I think I think there's a gap in how we think about hiring too. My advice is to always be in the game of hiring, just like you should always be in the game of finding clients. It's [00:21:00] part of our roles as firm owners is to constantly be interviewing and hiring. This is one of the jobs of the owner that gets neglected until we find ourselves in a crisis. Hire. Well guess what? People are going to leave your firm. So have a plan at the beginning of the year to how to deal with that. There are services that are out there that can help you match up with full time hires, freelance hires, offshore hires. I mentioned one for the virtual assistants. I'd be plugging into community colleges in your market [00:21:30] and trade schools as well, who have accounting programs. I mean, is the ideal state to hire somebody locally? Yeah, that's your state, of course. Yeah, that's just not how that's not the game right now.

Annie Schwab: But you know, when we talk, when we talk to our pageant owners, some of them have, you know, all their staff is in the building, you know. But then we have lots that have virtual employees, remote employees. And I've never heard anybody complain like, oh, I can't do this anymore. Or this was too much of [00:22:00] a headache, or the technology costs too much. Like, I feel like once you embrace going with remote or any of the examples that you gave, I don't really see anybody go back or say that was the worst decision I've ever made. Or I mean, regardless, they're going to be struggles finding the right person, training that person, ensuring the quality of the work. I know that can be sometimes concerning. When you have a remote employee, you know, are they actually working when they should be? Are they, you know, are [00:22:30] they working in a safe environment with client information? I get it, but I do think that once you know, you make the decision to go that route, I don't see anybody turning back. I don't I don't think we're going back to, you know, everybody in in a building. Um.

Roger Harris: But it's going to be hard to do. I think.

Jeff Phillips: You're right.

Roger Harris: Yeah. You know, I think one of the things I've heard this mentioned to me, a couple of people, that's hard to where it takes. There's a transition to remote hiring. There's technology. There's also [00:23:00] just customs. I mean, we all grew up looking down the hall and seeing if people were working, and we felt good if they looked busy. Um, when you're in a remote environment, you have to be satisfied that the work got done in a timely manner. You're not going to see the speed that they work. You're not going to see them, you know, like you can in another office. And that's hard for some people to adjust, you know that I want to I want to walk down the hall and see them doing something well.

Annie Schwab: And time zones make that difficult too, you know.

Roger Harris: Yeah.

Jeff Phillips: It does.

Annie Schwab: When [00:23:30] people work at different, you know, you could be up at seven working and that could be 10:00 somewhere else. So you know, it's just.

Annie Schwab: But it all works out.

Jeff Phillips: We see firms that that take advantage of project management software. You know, we all use one inside Paget and the owners of Paget offices do the same thing. And we have an owner who hires fully remote staff. And he says, I can tell you within 60 days if they're going to make it or not, because they track the pace [00:24:00] of work and the completion of work through a good project management system. Now that's backed up with checklists, and he can sense if someone's off track or on track, and if they're on track, they get training. If they're off track, they get some training. And it's sort of a three strikes. You're out. Some people can't hack it. I think remote work makes you a better manager. Uh, if if you lead with good trust, good training and good systems to make sure the work is getting done. It it isn't different. It's less, um.

Roger Harris: It's [00:24:30] different.

Jeff Phillips: Socially, it's not as great because I enjoy being in the office with you guys, and but we get but we also have ways around that. We get together throughout the year multiple times. So we get the camaraderie aspect of it and the culture aspect of it there. But yeah, we run a virtual company almost. Uh, with, with a headquarters or half the staff are there. Um, and we're blowing and going because we've figured out how to run this company virtually.

Roger Harris: So the answer to the questions that we heard [00:25:00] through all these forums is there are people out there. You're probably going to have to expand how you look for them. You're probably going to have to expand your ability to pay and be competitive, and you're probably going to have a transition. It's going to be a little challenging. You're going to have to update some technology, update some systems and the way you do things. And but the solution is there. There is an answer to it in, in today's market. But it's not what you did ten years ago. [00:25:30] Does that sound like a good summary of where we are?

Jeff Phillips: It's a great summary and it's always fun for me is looking at what the real entrepreneurial owners are doing. A lot of times these are younger owners who are who weren't taught one way versus another way. So they're innovating and guess what they're doing? They're running their businesses in the cloud. They have aggressive pricing and they have remote staff. And so we can all take a we can [00:26:00] take some wisdom from the innovation they're creating. And they're showing us that this is doable. Now I'm now I'm seeing 50 year old 60 year old firms doing the same thing. So yeah, the answer is staring us in the face. It just requires some change to be successful at it. But the payoff? The benefits are more profit, better growth, and less work for the owner. Which is what I think everyone that owns a firm in the accounting space is looking for right now.

Annie Schwab: Yeah

Roger Harris: And Gging to our big picture, it'll be [00:26:30] an easier firm to sell if you're in that space.

Jeff Phillips: It will be because you made finding people to do the work a system, right. I'm confident that this business I'm going to buy is good at finding people. When people leave and when the firm grows to find the people. So you figured that part out. Now, which firm would you rather buy? A firm that has a client list where the owner is working 120 hours a week to serve the clients, or a system that that routinely has new people come in to [00:27:00] serve the clients and the owners working 40 hours a week, running the company.

Annie Schwab: And making money.

Roger Harris: And making money

Annie Schwab: Yep.

Roger Harris: All right, Jeff, I think you have solved the problem, but you've created the next one. How in the world do I have the money to do this? And where in the world do I find the systems to put this in place? So you know what, Jeff? I think it's time we bring a man in.

Annie Schwab: All right, well, thank you so much, Amanda, for joining us. Um, you are next up to kind of explain to us [00:27:30] how do we get from struggling to hire and then affording the new hires? It's got to do. It's got to be all pricing or maybe mostly pricing, I don't know. I hate pricing, I get nervous when I have to tell somebody I raised your price. It always makes me feel bad. But in all honesty, it's it's so doable, right? It's doable.

Amanda Aguillard: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting that we are making this link between hiring and pricing here, because what we hear when we're out in the community [00:28:00] and listening to firm owners, we don't often hear them articulate that they have a pricing problem. What we hear them say is I need more help, but I can't afford it, or I'm working too much, or I have a, you know, I'm at capacity. I can't take on new clients because I'm just doing too much work. Those are indicators, really, of a pricing problem. A lot of times, um, and so, so at Paget, you know, we do a lot of, a lot of, uh, market research to figure out where our folks really need to [00:28:30] be pricing and then communicating that back to them and benchmarking them. So pricing feels weird. I mean, we're we are, um, accountants and we are hyper focused on dollars, right? Like, we just are aware of dollars and pennies. And so to ask for more sometimes feels strange for us. Um, and, and the consequences of that tend to be that the owner of a firm or the partners of a firm are taking on so much more work, and they just say, [00:29:00] I'll absorb it. I'll just I'll take it on. I'll be the martyr. Um, I will live the hard lifestyle and I'll take one for the team. But as you guys know, we see this in some of our firms. Sometimes that's unsustainable.

Roger Harris: So yeah, it's unsustainable.

Amanda Aguillard: Um, and so what firms who are not addressing the inflow of of income. Right. And are just saying, well, I'll just eat it on the back end personally. They're really doing a disservice to their families. Um, [00:29:30] first of all, their employees, because what they're doing is perpetuating a bad business model. Um, because they won't face the facts on the pricing. And they're, they're they're ultimately leaving their clients in a bad spot because they don't have either the time or the, um, or the, the effort anymore. They just don't they can't serve the clients the way they should. So all those things, um, tend to feel overwhelming and confusing, but a lot of them lead to the same [00:30:00] solution, which is you got to fix your pricing, right.

Roger Harris: Because too much of what we do is anecdotal. We remember the one client that got mad, or the one client.

Roger Harris: Left because we raised fees. We forget that ten others said, oh yeah, okay. You know, yeah, uh, you need and I'm kind of this is a question I'm. And I'm not just spouting off, but you need a strategy and a plan and a point of reference, because if not, your human nature and your anecdotal things [00:30:30] will drive you into a system that really isn't a system. It's just. How do I feel today when I'm talking to this person?

Amanda Aguillard: Right. And it's it's when you don't know what the right end result is. It's hard to be confident about asking for that for that amount. Right? So when you're in a group like pageant, we can tell firms, we can say, look, we know what a return of this complexity should cost on the market. So there's not an emotion attached to, um, [00:31:00] the confusion around pricing because we give them very strict guidelines. This is what you need to be charging for accounting services, advisory services and tax returns. Um, so that doesn't mean it's always easy, but at least there there's some confidence in knowing that that is the fair market value of what they're offering. Um, and and to your point, you shouldn't have to be figuring out every, every time a new client comes to you. It should be unemotional, right? [00:31:30] Yeah.

Roger Harris: Yeah. There's a system.

Amanda Aguillard: There's a system. Yeah.

Roger Harris: And every all these listeners are members of associations. Every association does fee surveys. I mean, and I guarantee you compare yourself to ours. Theirs. You're probably under it if you're having these problems. And yeah.

Amanda Aguillard: I mean, we've we've seen that, um, across our own firms even, who know better. You know, they know what they should be charging. Um, but what we do is we make sure that they [00:32:00] have the tools. And again, these are publicly available. Um, you know, strategies. What are the tools to ask for? What what the right price is for for a service. Um, so folks just have to just run their business like a business and do the tough things. Um, and it does get easier. And to to your point, too, we know we've done this across dozens, hundreds of firms. The clients accept the the price increases almost without fail. I mean, 90%. So [00:32:30] nine times out of ten, your clients are going to just take that price, um, the price you offer.

Roger Harris: Yeah. If you're doing a good job, they know it's worth it.

Annie Schwab: And I've also heard from not only people at the forum, but also, um, you know, some of our offices, the whole idea of like, the scope, you know, adding things on doing a little bit here extra a little bit here or there extra and not actually charging for it. I think that can be part of it too. Um, you know, it's the phone calls and the emails and the oh, I can just make that one [00:33:00] more change or I can. Yeah, I can, you know, send you another copy. I can, you know, talk to your mortgage broker, you know, like all of these kind of add on things that we're so used to just pleasing the client, you know, you want to I want the client to be happy. I want the client to come back. I want the clients to, you know, tell their friend. But at the same time, like, work is work you deserve to be paid for for the services that you're providing. Um, and sometimes I feel like we kind of get a little into the gray area.

Amanda Aguillard: If I hear [00:33:30] this return will only take me 15 minutes one more time.

Annie Schwab: Right? Yeah.

Amanda Aguillard: You know, it's a it's a the child of a client. It's only going to take me 15 minutes. Maybe, but it also took your admin, you know, three phone calls to get the correct information. It took somebody on your staff to draft the bill, took somebody else on your staff to, uh, get collection on the bill and, you know, grab the 879, like, all these things, they all add up. And so we don't What we talk about a pageant is don't get paid for what you do. [00:34:00] Get paid for what you know, right? So it shouldn't be an accumulation of minutes that you're exchanging for dollars. Because the reality is there are only so many minutes in a week. We want to get paid for what we have, for the value of what we're offering our our clients, which is a a service under our with our expertise.

Roger Harris: Right.

Roger Harris: Talk a little bit about and I know we don't have time in this to go in detail, but sometimes losing clients because of fee is a good thing. And if you do the math, [00:34:30] if you start with a hundred and you raise fees on 80 of them and 20 leave, you're probably going to end up with more money and less work when it's over. So that's again part of a system and a strategy. I mean, I'm shortcutting and I know you're going to have to do the same because there's a whole program on this. But talk a little bit about understanding the whole dynamics of having a universal fee increase. You win two ways.

Amanda Aguillard: Yeah. [00:35:00] So as I started, um, when we started talking, I said the way this shows up is a capacity problem, right? Right. Um, generally. And so what we what we teach our firms is get all your, all the clients that you're going to end up with in your book of business need to be paying paying market value. And that is likely going to end up with some clients either leaving like the number of clients will go down. But in general and we've we've done this a bunch of times. Total revenue does not go down.

Roger Harris: Right.

Amanda Aguillard: What either what [00:35:30] happens is revenue stays the same. A couple of clients drop off and you have capacity, right. So you're doing now less work for the same amount of money. Or what happens more often, honestly, is that all the clients, even the ones you were thinking, are hoping might leave all agree to those price increases. So now you have additional dollars to go buy some capacity and do the hiring thing.

Annie Schwab: Maybe that means you didn't raise them high enough. Like, if nobody leaves, then maybe you got to keep raising your prices. That's what I

Amanda Aguillard: Look. You've heard this when we. When we go [00:36:00] back a year later and we ask our firms who, like, really dug in and made radical price changes, what do you wish you would have done differently? They all say, I wish I would have done it sooner, and I wish I would have done more of a price increase. I didn't increase it enough, right?

Roger Harris: Right. Again, it's our it's our human nature. A funny story that came up, I guess. I don't know where the last one was. Sandy San Diego, and they were talking about running clients off by raising fees. And everybody said, that doesn't work. You can't you can't run a cried off by raising their fees. [00:36:30] And so I said, the person who said that, I said, well, that's true. So your bad clients will pay you and won't leave, but your good clients will. That doesn't make sense. But we're afraid to raise it on the good ones because we're afraid they're leave. We raise it on the bad ones and they won't leave.

Annie Schwab: Right.

Annie Schwab: It is an interesting it is an interesting dynamic and it like it makes sense and it and it seems like okay, I'm just I'm just going to do it. I'm just going [00:37:00] to raise my prices and the good clients are going to stay, and the bad ones are going to go, and I'm going to be all happy about it, and my employees are going to be happy about it. And I think it's it's sometimes shocking to see that how it falls out. Um, but again, I've never heard somebody say I'm upset. I raise my prices. I mean, have you ever had somebody been like, man, I raised it, you know, by 20%, but I should have only done 15. Like, we don't get those stories.

Annie Schwab: Everyone's happy.

Amanda Aguillard: I hate to I hate to speak [00:37:30] in, like, the absolutes, but it has never happened in pageant. You just. It just hasn't happened with with the folks that we've, um, we've gone through this exercise with. Nobody ends up with less revenue. They just don't.

Roger Harris: You end up with less. You will lose some clients. You will lose some clients. That that is an absolute fact. But that's okay. If your.

Roger Harris: Money.

Amanda Aguillard: You will not lose revenue. You don't.

Roger Harris: You're not going to lose revenue, but you will lose the client. If so, if you're it's your best friend, gain time.

Annie Schwab: You'll gain time. [00:38:00]

Roger Harris: You'll gain. It's a win win.

Annie Schwab: Work life balance.All of it. Exactly. It's a win win.

Roger Harris: So all right, Amanda, a couple of questions that I heard. When's the best month to raise fees?

Amanda Aguillard: Well, I'll tell you what's not a good month. Raise fees. Um, and this might go against the grain. January is a terrible time to raise fees. Um, and that's because the you as the owner, you need to you need to absorb whatever the shakeout is, whether that is, as we just talked about, less [00:38:30] clients coming in or more revenue coming in that allows you to hire, you're never going to be able to hire. And if we're talking about tax specific, tax heavy firm, you're not gonna be able to hire a tax person to help you in January. Um, it's really it's very difficult to do that. So what we what we tell our clients, honestly, the best time to do it is, I think is right after tax season. Um, because you are feeling the pain. Yeah.

Annie Schwab: Motivation right?

Roger Harris: Yeah. You got the most.

Roger Harris: Motivation you're ever going to have.

Amanda Aguillard: Exactly. I [00:39:00] mean, a lot of folks will say, I'm I'm never doing it like that again, ever. And so, like, just rip the band aid off and and and make business decisions and say, this is the amount of dollars I need to do these clients again. And if they go, they go. But you've got to you've got time to recover. That also gives you time to to backfill with additional client work if you want to. It allows you to hire it allows you to retool your processes. Um, and so honestly, the sooner after tax season, um, that you can do that, the better [00:39:30] the better.

Roger Harris: The other thing I, I heard, well, all of my, most of my clients go to the same church and they'll all talk to each other and they'll all get mad and I'll lose them all at once. Ever heard that happen?

Amanda Aguillard: No. And that's what a terrible. No.

Amanda Aguillard: No, no, I mean it.

Amanda Aguillard: No, I've never heard of that happening. I think you know, what that probably speaks to? Is this, like lack of self-confidence that folks in the accounting firm accounting profession have? Um, [00:40:00] your your price does not equal like the quality of your of your of being a human right. Like it's just it's not the same. It's. No. Why why would anybody equate a fair price with a bad person? That doesn't.

Annie Schwab: Make any.

Annie Schwab: Yeah.

Roger Harris: And I don't think you're that important that when they all go to church that all they're talking about isaccounting or tax.

Annie Schwab: But I can see how in small towns, you know, there might only be 1 or 2 tax preparers. And, you know, everybody goes to one of these two. Um, and so I, I can understand [00:40:30] how in very tight small communities, you know, there's this sort of sense of community and, and whatnot. But that still doesn't mean that you shouldn't get paid for the work that you do. I mean, you pay your dentist for for your filling and your teeth cleaning, you know.

Amanda Aguillard: And and here's here's a newsflash. Your clients don't have to live in the same town as you.

Annie Schwab: Oh, that's that is true.

Roger Harris: To know that when we're going to expand outside of the same building to hire people, we can also expand outside [00:41:00] of the same town for clients. And I don't believe anybody has ever had that. But they've all a lot of people have said that. That's what holds them back is we all go to the same church, and I don't want to be kicked out of the Sunday school class or something for raising everybody's fees.

Roger Harris: I don't know, it's just it's amazing how people resist doing what's right to get paid for what they're worth and how they find ways and excuses.

Amanda Aguillard: Well, they're going to they're going to have to get it. They're going to have to [00:41:30] do it eventually. Right. Because again, it's unsustainable. You can't live in a in a business that isn't sustainable. I mean, there's whether it's them, the owners or, you know, any of our listeners who are who have practices where they are just I mean, just working way too much for the amount of income they're pulling out of their practices. And I've seen that before. Even if they can sustain that personally for a while, they end up with a business entity that is worthless.

Annie Schwab: Yeah, they'll [00:42:00]never sell it.

Amanda Aguillard: And so you're saddling your family with something, you know, whether you retire or you move on in other ways, you're selling your family with a business that has no value, no economic value, because everybody was underpriced. So it's just it's it's it's unsustainable.

Roger Harris: Yeah.

Roger Harris: It is, it is. And it will come back. What you're going to really be mad at yourself about is if you find somebody to discount your firm and buy it, and then they turn right around and raise the fees to what they should be, and they get all the benefit, and you got none of it.

Annie Schwab: Right? [00:42:30]

Annie Schwab: I'm sure it happens.

Roger Harris: Oh, sure, they.

Amanda Aguillard: Happens all the time.

Roger Harris: It wasn't emotional to them. It was a business. It was a price. It was. You know, I always tell people, I said when I go into a restaurant. They don't charge me based on how hungry I am. You know, they charge me because this is what the food is worth. This is, you know, I may not eat it all. I may want more. But we tend to price people's work on how I feel that day, how much money they make, how do they go to my church or whatever. The none of that [00:43:00] matters. What matters is what the work I'm providing and what it's worth. And that's how you run a business?

Amanda Aguillard: Yep.

Roger Harris: So all right so Jeff's going to find them. You're going to pay for them.

Annie Schwab: Now we gotta grow the business. That's what.

Roger Harris: Now we gotta.

Annie Schwab: Hear.

Roger Harris: Because we want to go beyond that any. Because I think you kind of took us to our wrap up point that this is not just going to matter day in and day out. It's going to matter when it comes time to sell.

Annie Schwab: Mhm.

Amanda Aguillard: Absolutely. [00:43:30] Y'all y'all have seen this in the industry. I mean there are what 75% of firm owners are retiring or at retirement age within the next five years. It's not a seller's market.

Annie Schwab: No it's not, you.

Amanda Aguillard: Know, it's you don't get to decide who buys your firm if you're on the way out. And so what you have to do is build an attractive firm and and what folks are looking for, I mean, almost as much as anything else is well priced, is well priced work. Um, it's not [00:44:00] the number of clients anymore, and it's not the total number of dollars. It is. How much am I getting from each of these engagements? Um, so, yeah, it has to be if you're especially out there, if y'all are if anybody out there is looking to, um, sell in the next five years, if you're not well priced, it's going to be a real struggle, right?

Roger Harris: You got to stand out among the many right now. There's so many firms for sale. You want to be the firm that comes to the top when people are looking to buy. And [00:44:30] that part of that will be, uh, your well priced because.

Amanda Aguillard: Well, the last thing a buyer wants to do is come in and in the number one, convince your staff they should stay and work with them. Number two. You know, absorb all of the the conversion and software changes. But the last thing they want to do is have to go have a conversations with your clients who they don't know yet and say, trust me, this will be fine. And also I need, you know, an extra 25%.

Roger Harris: Yeah.

Amanda Aguillard: It's really really difficult.

Roger Harris: It's not a good way to introduce yourself to clients

Amanda Aguillard: No no. [00:45:00]

Roger Harris: Thank you. Amanda,

Annie Schwab: I know this was great.

Roger Harris: Yeah, this is great. Now we've got to go figure out how to find some new clients and how to communicate all this. So, um, we got next. Annie.

Annie Schwab: We have Katerina. She's going to join us here, and, um, kind of give us some tips on marketing and growth, um, and establishing your firm so that when you're ready to retire or whatever you decide to do next, um, it is ready for sale.

Katarina Thomas: Hi, [00:45:30] guys. Thanks for having me.

Roger Harris: Hey, Katerina.

Katarina Thomas: How's it going?

Roger Harris: Good.

Annie Schwab: We've had some great conversations with Jeff and Amanda and you are up next. So thank you for joining us. Um, I know you spent a lot of time at the forums, at the booths, but also talking with a lot of the attendees. Um, so we thought we'd we'd bring you in to give us an update on, from your perspective, from the marketing side, um, what was your takeaway from the forums?

Katarina Thomas: Yeah. Um, well, I wouldn't say that it was [00:46:00] my takeaway from the forums. It's more my overall takeaway. Um, in general, accountants absolutely hate marketing. Like, hate CPE.

Katarina Thomas: Don't want to talk to me. Um, and I think a lot of it comes from this kind of misconception. We're talking about bandwidth. Um, but it comes from this misconception that marketing is kind of this, like all or nothing thing. Um, you either are doing all of it and accepting all clients or like, you're not going to do any of it. You're not going to think about it. Um, that or just like, that's not where a lot of accountants like brains are at. Like that's not [00:46:30] where they thrive. And, you know, it's funny, like, I would never thrive in the accounting mind space. So it's good about like, you know, complementary skill sets here. Um, but there's definitely nothing, I think, scary about marketing. And it can very much be a, um, scaled, uh, approach for the average, like, small firm owner. Um, I think where it really what the, the big takeaway needs to be for a firm owner is that you do have to do some level of marketing, um, [00:47:00] whether or not you're accepting new clients. It's a little bit like thinking about your, your firm. Um, it doesn't have a physical storefront. So your website, your, your Google business profile, your social profiles, those kinds of things, those act as your storefront. Um, so the average person kind of, you know, tinkering around on the internet, um, thinking about an accountant, um, maybe they are a referral from a client you love.

Katarina Thomas: Um, and so you're like, yeah, I want to take 15 more of this client that I love working [00:47:30] with that person. Typically, even if they've got that good referral from, you know, friend, colleague, whatever that they trust, they still really are expecting some level of presence on the internet. That's just kind of the point we've gotten to with marketing. Um, so they're expecting, you know, to find a website to find your Google business profile. And so they you have to think about it in that way, is that you don't have to be marketing actively. You don't need to go crazy and like, do every new piece of marketing and invest thousands and thousands of dollars. But you do need to have your [00:48:00] kind of storefront set up. So if somebody's walking down the street and, you know, shopping, they happen to see this attractive storefront and they decide, let me come on in. Um, it's the same thing with your website. It needs to be updated. It needs to look attractive. It needs to kind of put out that kind of professional, um, impression that you that you want. Um, so that's what I would say to an average marketer is make sure that you have the like the baseline, make sure that you've got an updated Google business profile with, you know, your your updated hours, [00:48:30] especially around taxis.

Katarina Thomas: And if you're changing those hours. Let's make sure that those get updated. You have the correct phone number that you have good pictures, um, that you have your profile verified. I know that that's really a question mark for a lot of firm owners. Um, is how important is the verification? Um, and when it comes down to it, Google search is always going to prioritize, um, their own kind of ecosystem. So Google Business Profile is part of Google. So if you've got a really good verified [00:49:00] profile that's going to make sure that you show up when somebody searches for an accountant, make sure that that you show up when they're searching for you. I mean, if you really don't have much at all in the way of an online presence, even if somebody thinks they're looking for you. Bob Smith, CPA, you know, there's the other Bob Smith in town is going to pop up first if you're not kind of putting in that initial effort. So I'd say that that's the starting point for all accountants. If you absolutely hate hate marketing, make sure that you've kind of got the the base pieces. And then as you start to [00:49:30] think further about what you're supposed to be doing to grow, um, again, Google's going to prioritize its own tools.

Katarina Thomas: So reviews. Um, I think you're really leaving so much on the table if you are not asking your clients to review you. I mean, obviously, if you know, if they're not a good client, maybe that's not such a valuable review for you, but you should be asking for a review. Make it part of your process. I mean, that's so essential. We have some firm owners that in the last year have started really proactively asking for reviews, either [00:50:00] sending out a mass email or making it part of their kind of closeout process at the end of an engagement, um is asking for reviews and they will get tens and tens of reviews just from, you know, making the effort to ask. And I think people sometimes have the misconception that either if you ask, it's kind of like icky or like self-promotional or that you don't need to ask if they like what you're doing, they're going to go make sure to to review you. And I think neither of those things are true. Um. [00:50:30] Social proof. So proof from other other people, um, is the most important thing for, um, a potential client who's considering, you know, working with your firm. Um, and again, it's so important for search to show that you've got active, um, reviews.

Katarina Thomas: So if you have, you know, 50 reviews from four years ago. Helpful, but not really so important. Like, you need to make sure that you're kind of continuously asking for those reviews, and then that kind of funnels into a whole world of other things that you can do with [00:51:00] your marketing. Um, if you've got a good review, um, you can turn it into a client testimonial like a proper feature on your website. You can use them for social media. I mean, I know we haven't really even touched on social media, and that's another kind of can of worms for people. Um, but it is kind of the next step in how you're making sure that you're optimized for search is making sure that you've got, you know, a Facebook page that, you know, doesn't have a ten [00:51:30] year old post and you know your address from three offices ago. Um, again, it's the kind of, you know, how is your what is your storefront look like? Make sure that it's it's updated. Um, so if you are starting to think about how you expand further, it's setting up that that Facebook page or the LinkedIn profile with some good kind of supporting pieces of information that kind of set you up as this professional. Well, um, respected, um, accountant.

Annie Schwab: Yeah. [00:52:00] I mean, I go on, I Google, I go on my phone, on my computer if I'm looking for, I mean, it can be like the best sandwich shop. I'm not kidding. Like, I mean, that's where everybody goes. What? Where's the closest? Where's the best? Who's. Who's the best painter? Who's the best accountant? You know, like and I do the same thing on Facebook and LinkedIn and all kinds of stuff. So definitely I can see how, you know, it could seem overwhelming. Like, so many things to do. Like, I'm already so busy. But I think in the long run it does. [00:52:30] And I read the reviews when I'm thinking about, you know, going to a different doctor or different, you know, whatever. I'll definitely go read the reviews and see who's highly rated, who comes up on my Google search. And you know what people are saying about them. Um, so.

Katarina Thomas: It boils down to human behavior. Like that is how we kind of all been trained to operate at this point is like, you know, is this real? Is this like, do other people trust this? Whatever I'm trying to, to do? And so people just are going to trust other people. [00:53:00] And so, I mean, there's a whole world I know of around referrals. Um, and that really is for most people, such valuable. Um, well, of, of leads is kind of referrals. Um, and so I have a whole, a whole, you know, rabbit hole. I could go down talking about the importance of, of how you build your referral pipeline, but it definitely starts with with Google reviews.

Roger Harris: Yeah, I heard a lot of what I would consider the old fashioned kind of stuff. Now, I don't know, that's just so I [00:53:30] want your comments on this. You mentioned referrals. A lot of people talked about how they grow through referrals only. I mean, I think that's effective if you have a real strategy behind it, not just the occasional referral. A lot of them talked about speaking, you know, going to the board of Realtors and talking.

Roger Harris: About, oh, yeah.

Roger Harris: Taxes and stuff like that. How effective, you know, for, for the maybe the smaller firm who hasn't jumped into the digital world yet. I [00:54:00] mean, I'll say this, any marketing is better than no marketing. So anything you're doing is better than nothing. How effective is that sort of thing? And can it be effective if it's done properly and not just meets the definition of what they're saying it is?

Katarina Thomas: Yeah.

Katarina Thomas: Um, I mean, with referrals. Yes. The short answer is that's for most accountants. That's really going to be your most valuable source of leads. I have to ask the question, if you are not pricing your clients correctly, and [00:54:30] maybe you're accepting clients, that you shouldn't be accepting, how many of your current clients would you want more of? So

Roger Harris: You know, that was interesting. A couple of the panelists, to their credit, said that they wouldn't take they would grade their clients A, B, C, D, and they wouldn't take a referral from a C or D client.

Amanda Aguillard: Interesting.

Katarina Thomas: You know,

Annie Schwab: I like it.

Amanda Aguillard: That's exactly,so if you're in a position where you, you know, don't have this massive number of clients that you're, like, really happy with and that [00:55:00] you want to continue to work with, those are the people that are going to be sending you those referrals. So you do have to think about the other pieces. You know, how many of those clients do you want a referral from? And so that's where you can start to kind of control things is, you know, feature the reviews from the clients that you do want more of. You've got a construction client that you love. Maybe you are really enjoying real estate agent relationship. You love going down. You know the the sales tax rabbit hole with your retail clients, whatever it is that [00:55:30] you are enjoying and that you want more of. Those are the reviews that you can feature, and those are also the clients that you can ask for referrals. I think it's in the same vein of like, oh, I shouldn't ask for reviews. You should absolutely ask for referrals. In addition to asking for reviews, you should find the clients that you want more of, and you should make sure that they know that you're open to to new business. Um, but make sure that those people are priced correctly first, because otherwise they're going to say, hey, Cindy told me that I, you know, was going to pay X. Why are you telling me now that I'm going [00:56:00] to pay Y?

Annie Schwab: Right, right.

Katarina Thomas: Yeah. You do need to kind of think about about that.

Katarina Thomas: But then in terms of building out your referral pipeline further, I mean, it is very much a smart move to think about your niche. And if you want to build your niche in real estate or you want to build your niche in construction like yes, go, go give the presentation at um at those committees. Right. Committee or at the, you know, the Chamber of Commerce. Um, and that's, I think, where I can kind of wrap it back around here to, to kind of federal tax updates, [00:56:30] changes to the, the tax code present such an opportunity. I mean, I think we're all seeing that right now with the big people. Bill, there's so much kind of anxiety from the small business community about like, what does this mean for me? How is it going to impact me? It's such an opportunity, um, to be at the forefront of of what's being said. And I mean, something we've talked about with a lot of our firm owners is, you know, don't don't jump the gun and say too much too soon, but make sure [00:57:00] that you're the first person that your clients hear from when there's news, even if the all they hear from you is, we know this is going on, we are not going to, you know, make assumptions about what's happening. Um, we're going to give you the, the, you know, real informed, um, guidance that you need to to ingest this news. Um, and you'll hear from us later. And also don't listen to whatever TikTok video you're going to see tomorrow.

Annie Schwab: Right?

Roger Harris: Right.

Katarina Thomas: But it really presents such an opportunity when you hear about something that's happening [00:57:30] to, to, you know, relay that to your clients in this really calm, um, restrained way.

Annie Schwab: We're here for you. We're going to let you know what you need to do, what you need to be aware of, or, you know, don't stress about it. We've got you kind of thing.

Katarina Thomas: Yeah.

Katarina Thomas: And don't you don't have to go into, like, all the details of what we think could happen or what might, you know, all the things that you hear about here. You don't need to dig into all that with your clients. You just need to start at the top of like, we've got you. Don't worry. More's coming.

Roger Harris: Yeah.

Roger Harris: I think the one thing that I think, and [00:58:00] the reason I think marketing is so important, is marketing gives you the confidence, the ability to make some changes in your firm that you may otherwise not be You courageous enough to make. If you know you have the ability to recruit new and good clients, you're going to be less likely to put up with a bad client. You're going to be less likely to charge too little. So I think not only is marketing the path to building a bigger firm, it's also a path to having [00:58:30] a better firm because you will have better clients that are priced better, that are following your systems and your rules because you know they can be replaced. You know, there's a way to and we're in a time with to your point, Katerina, with tax legislation where we're in great demand. We need to make sure that we take advantage of our marketing activities to improve the quality and profitability of each of our firms, by not just sitting [00:59:00] back and being completely reliant to me, I think, and we'll wrap this up in a minute. To me, today, referrals are today's reviews. I mean, you know, I really want you to be on my website with a review. More than. Yeah. If you got a friend that wants to refer me to them. Sure. But I really want you to put a review up so thousands of people see it. Not just the one.

Annie Schwab: The one.

Katarina Thomas: And I do have to say, like, that's why it's so important to have your baseline [00:59:30] kind of a marketing in place, even if you're like, I'm not trying to take on a bunch of new clients. Whenever you do get to that point, don't be starting at zero. Like don't take six months to build an entire presence when you're ready for new clients. If you've already got the baseline in a good place, you've got the website and the social and the thought leadership and the reviews, then it's easy to kind of, you know, pull a couple of levers and really start actively going out there instead of spending that time getting that set up.

Annie Schwab: That makes so much sense. Yeah, like almost [01:00:00] planning, just like Jeff was talking about, like, when is a good time to hire? Well, it's not when you need somebody you should always be hiring. It's kind of like the same thing, you know, you should always be considering what marketing opportunities and you know where you can tap in to to get more of a online presence. I like that.

Roger Harris: So if you do everything that we taught you in this podcast today, you will have a firm that has a good hiring department and a good staff in place with properly client priced clients and a firm that is [01:00:30] growing. And in a world that's typically a buyer's market, I think if you have those three things in place, you will be a standout in the marketplace and.

Katarina Thomas: I agree.

Roger Harris: Your your equity value will go up and your day to day lifestyle.

Annie Schwab: And it's a win win go.

Roger Harris: Up as well.

Roger Harris: So.

Katarina Thomas: That's true.

Roger Harris: Um, I wish we could have spent a day. Well, we have spent a day on this in seminar, so, um, we tried to hope bring you something different. A little different today, and hope this will [01:01:00] be helpful. Again, this is in response to what we heard 15 times over the last three years from Absolutely. Firm owner. So I hope that, uh. Katerina, thank you for sharing your expertise. And, uh, I hope this will will make a difference in some of our listeners firms if you just hopefully you found at least one little thing and something somebody said that you can go back and be a little bit better. And now that tips are tax free, we will take tips if we.

Roger Harris: Got if any of this helps you.

Annie Schwab: Exactly. [01:01:30]

Annie Schwab: That's funny. Yeah. Roger, this was a great idea. And thank you to all of our listeners and certainly our, our guests today. Um, but we will be returning with another federal tax updates podcast, um, in the next couple of weeks. And for sure some more information on Oba. Um, so thanks again to everyone who joined us today.

Roger Harris: Thanks for listening. We'll be back soon.